Haven't been able to get my landline switched over to my Fibe 4000 Modem!

[AnOldSenior]

I'm so frustrated I could spit.  I've been having major static problems with my outside landline.  And yes it is from the outside, my home wiring and phones are fine.  So I asked on Wed if tech support could send someone to fix it and they said they'd route my phones to my existing Fibe line instead.  (I have a HH4000 that works flawlessly at 160 Mb).   But instead on Thurs they sent a tech to my house to install a HH 3000.  And of course as soon as the tech saw I already had a 4000 up and running he said I didn't need his 3000 for my phones but his ticket (order#) didn't mention moving my phone line over so he wasn't allowed to do it and I'd have to ask support yet again?  Which I did explaining I only needed my phones transferred over to my existing HH 4000.

Then today (Sat) another Tech arrived with yet another HH 3000 and I went through all this crap again only worse as this tech admitted he was only trained to do Fibe installations and had no idea how to handle the normal phone wiring and convert my existing home phone and tel number to work with the HH4000!  

So I've now been living with a horrible outside phone line for over a week and I can't figure out how in hell to get these Bell support people to simply send some qualified Bell technician to actually move my phone line over to the 4000 instead of trying to rent me a second Fibe modem.  It's like I'm talking to morons? 

Or am I wrong and does Bell actually require you to have two Fibe Modems for internet and landline phones?  Which doesn't seem to make sense to me?  Honestly I don't know what to do at this point.  Should I try phoning them (or using chat when the phone is bad, half of the time) and try again or should I just say to hell with it.  Cancel my land line and buy myself a cheap cell phone and plan instead.  

[Paladin · Accepted solution]

Hi!

You only need one modem to have a phone line, both the HH4000 and HH3000 have the possibility of having two phone lines.

I am not totally sure what was the problem for the second tech as there is actually two things that need to be done..

1) Connect the phone line from the modem to Bell's NID (Network Interface Device), obviously disconnecting the original copper phone line before doing this. Obviously the tech needs to know how to deal with copper cabling though I do not see why every tech could not know how to do this as it is not that difficult to do...

2) Reroute the calls so that they are sent to the HH4000. That's most likely done by having the tech call Bell's offices...

There are techs which know how to deal with both copper and fiber, I am not sure if the first one that brought the cable to my house did but the one who did the actual final install definitely did, you were pretty unlucky...

By the way, if that phone number is worth anything to you (as in everyone knows it), do not cancel your landline before transferring the number to whatever service you want to use it with. This is called a LNP (Local Number Portability) request...

By the way, those old copper wires are most likely very corroded just like mine were, this is probably the reason of your problems... There is one advantage to using a phone line like this however, as long as you don't use a phone that needs electricity they work during a power outage while a phone connected to a HH4000 won't unless you plug the HH4000 into an UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply). The HH3000 did support having a battery for this but you can no longer buy it..

Good luck and have a nice day!

[AnOldSenior]

Thank you!   This is the most intelligent info I've received through this entire debacle.  

The tech on Sat. was a young man who admitted that he had ONLY been trained on Fiber and knew nothing about my copper phone lines or how to switch them over. 

Bell's NID I assume is that small unit with four terminals sitting on my basement wall where the outside line is currently attached to?  I could disconnect the outside line but I'd need a qualified tech to figure out what to do next.  And of course to do the reroute with Bell's offices which I can't  do.  Nor apparently Sat. tech who knew less about my phone lines than I did?

So again thanks for all the advice.  Guess I'll have to use chat with Bell (phone line unusable due to horrendous static) to see if I can get a tech who actually knows how to switch my lines over.

[BellPatricia]

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[Paladin · Accepted solution]

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Thank you!   This is the most intelligent info I've received through this entire debacle.  

😊

The tech on Sat. was a young man who admitted that he had ONLY been trained on Fiber and knew nothing about my copper phone lines or how to switch them over. 

That unfortunately happens from time to time, it happened to me too when I was still using DSL...

I am not sure why sometimes they do not dispatch the right type of technician considering they know if you are using copper or fiber...

Not a very good thing to happen when you made sure to stay home for the tech visit and it was all for nothing because they dispatched a technician unfamiliar with what is in use in your home...

That being said, in recent years all my encounters with Bell techs have been very positive...

Bell's NID I assume is that small unit with four terminals sitting on my basement wall where the outside line is currently attached to?  I could disconnect the outside line but I'd need a qualified tech to figure out what to do next.  And of course to do the reroute with Bell's offices which I can't  do.  Nor apparently Sat. tech who knew less about my phone lines than I did?

Well, if it is inside and you can actually see those terminals chances are what you have is not a NID but a demarcation point (or demarc).

A NID is a type of demarcation point but not all demarcation points are NIDs...

In my home (which was built in the '60s), I initially had what you can see on the right at this URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_point#Canada

On the left are some NIDs though not the style I usually see around here...

NIDs are usually installed outside (it makes it easier for Bell tech's to check if everything is ok without needing to go in the house)...

One was installed inside at one point for me (it was easier to get it grounded inside). I only wish it was not as huge as it is, especially now that I switched to fiber (it is no longer in use)...

The better ones have a place where you can disconnect your internal cabling from the phone company network and connect a phone there to see if you still have problems..

If you still have a problem when you do this it means the problem is with the phone company phone line, if you do not it means that the internal cabling in your house is faulty...

(Well a phone could be to blame to but that's usually how you determine where the problem is...)

If the problem is with the phone company's phone line the repair is free, if it is with your internal cabling you might want to investigate the problem further before calling them as you will be charged for repairs to your house cabling... There used to be some sort of contract you could take with Bell to have them be responsible for the house cabling, I am not sure if that still exists or not...

Some of the NIDs only let you access part of the NID, the customer side, while the phone company side is locked down using a "security bit".

By the way, only Bell is supposed to touch the phone company side of the cabling in the demarcation point/NID and there is voltage on those wires so definitely let them do it... Usually around 48 volts DC but when the phone rings you can get a nasty shock as it switches to AC of a higher voltage...

That being said, in my home I can actually disconnect my internal cabling from it as they installed a wall plug that my own cabling plugs into without having to mess with the NID, maybe that is the case for you too...

So again thanks for all the advice.  Guess I'll have to use chat with Bell (phone line unusable due to horrendous static) to see if I can get a tech who actually knows how to switch my lines over.

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I just thought of something....

There might be a way to get things mostly working without needing to have a tech come, at least for now...

This assumes that rerouting calls to your modem is done remotely from Bell's offices and that you are using wireless phones in your house (and not multiple phones around the house).

You would need to plug your wireless phone base in the modem.

I would not be surprised this might not even need a tech visit as our modems can most likely be remotely provisioned (configured). If that does require a manual intervention from a tech doing this does not require her/him to mess with your house cabling so they could send a tech that only deals with fiber.

If you really need to have other phone plugs working in the house this would only be a temporary solution until they can send a tech who is familiar with copper cabling.

At least that would start making things at least partially working for you...

By the way, many years ago there was sooooooo muuuuuch static on my phone line that it dialed 911 twice...

The first time it did that I explained to the 911 person what was happening and they did not send a patrol car but they had no choice to send one when it did that the second time...The cops knew this was not a normal 911 call so did not cause me much trouble... Fortunately it did not happen again...

That's when I learned that pulse dialing was still working here even though everyone had switched to touch tones...

Good luck and have a nice day!

[AnOldSenior]

Thank you.  I found your reply both very informative and very amusing.  So that's what a demarcation point is.  Yes I too have a big black one as house was built in 1954.  No what I was thinking of was this newer one put in by Bell below it after my DSL modem was fried by a Bell line surge a few years back.  (I've attached a photo).

Anyhoo I managed to get through to Bell Tech support (lousy crackling and all) and they're sending someone tomorrow afternoon.  So keeping my fingers crossed that it's a copper guy and not another Fibe guy.  Guess we'll see.  Thanks again for all the wonderful advice and I'll update this posting afterwards good or bad.  Hopefully good.

[Paladin]

Hi!

Thank you.  I found your reply both very informative and very amusing.  So that's what a demarcation point is.  Yes I too have a big black one as house was built in 1954.  No what I was thinking of was this newer one put in by Bell below it after my DSL modem was fried by a Bell line surge a few years back.  (I've attached a photo).

I cannot currently see it as images have to be approved by moderators... I posted a very small tutorial with pictures in another thread, I hope our images get approved soon...

So I will take a guess as to what you might have...

I would not be surprised if it was a DSL splitter, it takes what comes from Bell and split it in two, voice and data... You feed she voice part to your phones and the data part only to your modem...

Instead of having multiple DSL filters installed in the house which lower your signal quality you only have one...

I used to have one when I still had a copper phone line and DSL... It got removed when I switched to VoIP for my phone and and to a dry-loop for DSL (a phone line with no dial tone you can only use for DSL)...

Anyhoo I managed to get through to Bell Tech support (lousy crackling and all) and they're sending someone tomorrow afternoon.  So keeping my fingers crossed that it's a copper guy and not another Fibe guy.  Guess we'll see.  Thanks again for all the wonderful advice and I'll update this posting afterwards good or bad.  Hopefully good.

Well, as long as (s)he resourceful whatever type of tech they send should be able to get things at least partially working...

If (s)he is a copper tech, as long as (s)he can get your phone number switched from using the copper infrastructure to the VoIP one (ie the modem) (s)he should be able to get everything working... As far as I know all copper techs know how to deal with fiber since it is where things are going now...

I doubt a tech can do this (do the change in Bell's system to switch the number from copper to VoIP), this is most likely something they need to call in to do...

Being a copper tech means that (s)he has been with the company longer and should have a better idea how it is done...

If (s)he is a fiber tech, I am pretty sure they can get the phone line port on your modem working... (S)he might not be able to connect your modem phone line port to your home wiring but until such time it is possible to send a copper tech you would have at least one phone working properly and multiple if you have wireless phones and you plug the wireless phone base there...

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you...

Good luck and have a nice day!

[AnOldSenior]

I think you're right about my photo being of a DSL splitter.  It's a little white box about two inches high that's marked "Comtest VDSL2 & ADSL/2+" and has on one side four little phone cable sliders marked "Modem TR, Line TR, Phone TR, Phone TR" .  All connected to my phone signal cables except the "Modem TR" which is not connected.

I'm assuming also the tech can do the physical change of plugging the 4000 into my nearest jack (which I realize will no longer be available as a phone jack, no problem) and then remove the outside copper connection?  And assuming that works should then be able to phone in the change to Bell back to my old phone number if the 4000 is running on some other number?  I guess I'll find out tomorrow?

Again thanks for the help!

[Paladin]

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I think you're right about my photo being of a DSL splitter.  It's a little white box about two inches high that's marked "Comtest VDSL2 & ADSL/2+" and has on one side four little phone cable sliders marked "Modem TR, Line TR, Phone TR, Phone TR" .  All connected to my phone signal cables except the "Modem TR" which is not connected.

I can now see the picture and it is indeed a DSL splitter... Funny thing is that there is nothing connected to the modem terminals now, I guess it was removed at one point since you did mention having DSL in the past...

I believe they also have surge/lightning suppression but I am not sure they would install a DSL splitter solely for this. I do remember that you told me that you had damage from lightning so I guess if they did not have anything else they could have used it for that...

By the way, I smiled where I read "TR"..

It stands for "Tip" and "Ring".. These are the names (real ones, not nicknames) of the wires used for a phone line... Each pair of tip and ring is one phone line and you can have up to 3 of these pairs in a RJ11/RJ12 phone connector...

(The connectors our phones use to connect to the phone line...)

Any idea where that name comes from?

Do you remember those old movies where phone operators where manually inserting big headphone like connectors in a panel to connect two phone lines together?

Well, tip was the "tip" of that headphone like connector, ring was the metal part just below it...

I'm assuming also the tech can do the physical change of plugging the 4000 into my nearest jack (which I realize will no longer be available as a phone jack, no problem) and then remove the outside copper connection?  And assuming that works should then be able to phone in the change to Bell back to my old phone number if the 4000 is running on some other number?  I guess I'll find out tomorrow?

I am kind of a purist and would have connected it to the demarcation point/NID but that should work... I must confess that in my case it would be extremely easy to do as the modem is very close to my NID...

That being said, (s)he definitely needs to disconnect the outside phone cable from the demarcation point/NID before doing that as there is about 48 volts DC on these wire continuously and a higher AC voltage when the phone rings. That could damage the modem as I am sure its electronic circuity are not protected against this and it might even possibly damage other phones on that phone line...

As for removing the copper wire totally, I think it depends on where you live... I was told by the technician that completed my fiber install that they were told not to remove them but I know that in some places they do actually remove the copper wires so I don't know...

In your case, since there is a problem with the phone line, they might remove it even if you are in an area where they do not remove it...

That being said, the problem might not even be with the wire that comes from the pole but elsewhere in one of their connection boxes... The last time I had problems with the copper phone line the problem was not with the cable that came to my house but elsewhere..

Again thanks for the help!

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No problem!

Have a nice day!

[AnOldSenior]

Just a final update on my switchover to Fibe.  

I've now got both Internet and phone service working perfectly on a single HH4000 modem thanks to a young Bell tech who really went out of his way to help an old geezer like me.  And I'm told everything will be back to normal with my single account, phone number and log in's that I've gotten used to for over 40 years on my phone and since the days of DOS 3 and 56K modems on my internet.  Yep that long!

What a revelation for my phone clarity.  What I thought was old age of my ears and a poor phone was actually the copper land line.   With the fiber it's like both my ears and phones are now brand new?  Who knew?  That's how much the copper cables and connectors had aged on this street over the decades.

And of course jumping from an old 2nd gen DSL modem with 10 Mbps down and less than 1 Mbps up to a consistent 160 Mbps up and down is quite a revelation!  Monthly windows 10 system upgrades that would take 15 to 20 min. to load and install now take a couple of minutes.  So I'm really happy with this new Fibe cabling.

But all the crap I went through in the last week has also taught me an important lesson.  Time for this old dog to finally bite the bullet and get a simple smart phone and cell plan.  So never again am I dependent on one provider.  Just in case......   

So to all who gave me advice and helped me THANK YOU VERY MUCH!  Time now to get back to some serious internet surfing and maybe even uploading some videos to FB which I had never been able to do because it was just too slow.  Not a problem now!   😀 

[Paladin]

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@AnOldSenior wrote:

Just a final update on my switchover to Fibe.  

I've now got both Internet and phone service working perfectly on a single HH4000 modem thanks to a young Bell tech who really went out of his way to help an old geezer like me.&nbsp

I am glad!

And I'm told everything will be back to normal with my single account, phone number and log in's that I've gotten used to for over 40 years on my phone and since the days of DOS 3 and 56K modems on my internet.  Yep that long!

I think I still have my 110/300 bauds Hayes Micromodem II lying somewhere (Apple ][ modem...). As for PCs of that era, I am not sure if I still have any... I am keeping my fingers crossed for you...

What a revelation for my phone clarity.  What I thought was old age of my ears and a poor phone was actually the copper land line.   With the fiber it's like both my ears and phones are now brand new?  Who knew?  That's how much the copper cables and connectors had aged on this street over the decades.

Your copper cables sure degraded over the years as mine did but it is possible the sound quality if even better than what you could get with brand new copper cables... I am not sure which codec (a way to encode voice and sounds) uses for voice but some of them provide "HD" quality sound..

And of course jumping from an old 2nd gen DSL modem with 10 Mbps down and less than 1 Mbps up to a consistent 160 Mbps up and down is quite a revelation!  Monthly windows 10 system upgrades that would take 15 to 20 min. to load and install now take a couple of minutes.  So I'm really happy with this new Fibe cabling.

This is exactly what I had a few weeks ago, the exact same speeds...

As for your 160 Mbps that's most likely on WiFi, you could most likely get faster speeds directly connected to the modem or closer to it... 160 Mbps is close to what I get with the where I am in the house right now as I am too far away to connect to the modem (or my network switches). I get close to my full gigabit download when I connect to my modem or my network switches and a bit over my 750 Mbps upload...

But all the crap I went through in the last week has also taught me an important lesson.  Time for this old dog to finally bite the bullet and get a simple smart phone and cell plan.  So never again am I dependent on one provider.  Just in case......   

Having such backup solutions is always a good thing... You might want to look into those prepaid plans a few companies (including Bell) offers if you only want that it as a backup for voice... That being said having a smart phone with a data plan is a lot of fun too...

So to all who gave me advice and helped me THANK YOU VERY MUCH!  Time now to get back to some serious internet surfing and maybe even uploading some videos to FB which I had never been able to do because it was just too slow.  Not a problem now!   😀 

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I am glad every worked out for you...

Have a nice day!

[Paladin]

Hi!

I am reorganizing things in the house to bring my router/firewall closer to my modem and found my old DSL splitter while I am preparing for the big move 😉...

This is what I had:

Network was where the phone line from the demarcation point/NID was coming in and it was getting split into voice and data.

My splitter was simpler than yours, yours was able to handle more than one phone line I believe, mine only one.

The weird plug you see was because I had creatively used 😉 a phone plug meant for alarm systems, a RJ31X if I am not mistaken (there is two standards, the other is RJ38X and it's done by adding a wire between two pins I believe).

What using that alarm system plug gave me was a way to remove my DSL splitter from the phone line if I had a problem and suspected it could be caused by the splitter... 

When you plug something in that RJ31X connector the signal gets transferred to the splitter (normally the alarm system) so that it can do something with it..

When nothing is plugged in however it connects some pins together so that the phone line gets connected to the house wiring without needing to go through the splitter (or alarm system).

The reason this is done for alarm systems, that the signal from the phone line goes through the alarm system is to allow the alarm system to do line seizure, ie cut the signal to the phones so that it can dial the alarm company to report an alarm...

If they did not do that anyone who wanted to block the alarm system from dialing could put a phone off-hook...

Signing off from this thread now, hopefully your problem is now totally fixed (including billing).

Take care and have a nice day!

[AnOldSenior]

Just one final reply to your reply.   I've actually turned off the Wi-Fi on my Acer desktop so the 160 Mbps was using a simple ethernet cable.  I have checked it out using the Wi-fi to the modem (both are WiFi 6) and it's exactly the same speed because they're sitting beside each other.  And I'm getting 160 because I signed up for the Bell 150 Mbps package.  I didn't see any need to sign up for the 500 and 1 Gig packages.  Cheers.....  😁

[Paladin]

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@AnOldSenior wrote:

And I'm getting 160 because I signed up for the Bell 150 Mbps package.  I didn't see any need to sign up for the 500 and 1 Gig packages.  Cheers.....  😁

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😊

I erroneously thought that the HH4000 was for 500+ Mbps, I just checked and it is actually for 150+ Mbps, my bad..

I guess 150+ Mbps is FTTH (Fiber To The Home), anything below it is a variant of DSL which is no longer supported by the HH4000 but is still supported by the HH3000...

Good luck and have a nice day!

[SRS]

@AnOldSenior My first modem was 2400 baud, DOS 1 was a thing and 512K of memory was sufficient. Still haven't mastered FB though, nor do I want to lol.